This might make you angry

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

    There are hundreds of foriegner's working around here doing jobs that americans won't do because the pay rate is near the national minimum wage. Americans have needed and demanded higher wages for so long that the pay rates have risen to a level where the low paying jobs can't assemble work forces. Although some are filled by some young people they have to look elsewhere for employees. The ski area's around here use foriegn people from several different countries,I assume on a work visa or something,for the ski season and when it is over they go back home. Then the next year they come back again to do it again,so in this instance their job still awaits them,maybe even a raise and/or a promotion. They house them,feed them and give them a job so most of them go home with a bunch of money and like H@wk said they are rich back home. I knew a polish guy in his late 30's that had a 3 year visa and he worked at one of the local bar/restraunt/fine dining/dancing clubs for the whole 3 year period taking all the overtime he could get. They gave him a small apartment to live in across the road and he ate all his meals at the club. Everyweek he would buy a carton of cigarettes and 2 quarts of vodka,the rest of his money he sent home to his wife in Poland. While he was here he also managed to pick up an 18 ft. boat for $2000 not in to bad shape. He had friends that helped him spruce it up and at the end of his 3 years he shipped it to poland,costing him about $3000. As they were off loading it in Poland a guy offered him $15000 and he said he refused it,lol,the money he had in the bank and the boat made him a popular person that people envied because now he is a rich man.
      I think we did it to ourselves My Fellow Americans,scarey,(a hint of Nixon there),lol.

                                                           

A likely scenario, not only in the U.S. Alot of foreigners with a visa comming to Germany for exactly the same reasons. Does it make me envy ? What stops me from having a domicile in e.g. Poland and being a ´King´myself, with the money I have and which is much more worth there ? Am I in any position to blame the polish workers, as long as they have a visa and a job, nobody else wants to do ? I think not.....

[skullbonz]

    In no way was I blaming any of the nationalities for coming here to make more money than they can in their own country and in doing so greatly improving their lifestyles back at home.  Instead I was subtly blaming Americans for this situation,we did it to our greedy selves by driving up our wages thusly driving up our cost of living to a point that businesses can't afford to pay us so they look elsewhere for employees or move their company out of the country.  Right now most of the fruits and vegetables grown in the south and west of US are picked by Mexicans or other latin speaking people working for the low farm wages that proud Americans will not work for. Plus it is hard to find an American that would do that kind of labor. What would we do if they weren't there? No banana's,strawberries or peaches in our cereal,oh no. Between sky high pay rates,very high cost of living,over inflated property values and astranomical taxes it really makes me worry about the future of our young people. Someday who knows,you may see on CNN the poor Americans climbing over the fence to get into Mexico where they can get a job to support their families because there are no low paying jobs in the US and everything costs so much they can't afford to live here.
      So I guess what I am trying to say is this; As much as Americans b*tch about foriegn laborers,legal or illegal,we need them. More power to them if they can improve their lives doing so.

     One more thing, Just today over Xmas dinner in western Mass. area my brother-in-law was telling us about a company across the road from where he works that employed 145 people just closed down and moved the whole operation to Mexico. 

                                                                                                   

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

    In no way was I blaming any of the nationalities for coming here....

I know Bonz. I quoted your post because I wanted to emphasize it.

My reply wasn´t aimed at you.

[j69o]

So tell me tull what kind of rights does a worker from, lets say the middle east, have in Germany? How do you employ forgien workers there make them Excutives in your biggest companies? or they waiting tables?
My bottom line here is if you come here you will find work(maybe) until you at least prove your legality, you should have no rights here, you are more than welcome to apply for your citizenship, just make the effort!
IMHO J 

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

Long story, John.

To narrow it down, I think it is a question of ´who is allowed to do what, under which circumstances and exceptions of those´.

There are alot of laws in place for most different population groups and individiuals, in regard to ´residence permit´, ´employment permit´ and ´citizenship´.

It´s very hard to explain them in only a couple sentences, since it is a jungle of laws but each case will be dealt with individual. The german laws in regard to foreigners are really excessive, in most cases exemplary and in alot of cases also absurd. It really depends to where you come from and why you want to stay and work in Germany.

In general we differ between two large groups:

1.) war refugees and political haunted

2.) economic refugees

I think it is group no# 2, the ´economic refugees´ which meets with a square refusal, causes frustration, animosity, xenophobia and even pure hate.

So I really can´t answer your question:

...what kind of rights does a worker from, lets say the middle east, have in Germany?

because it really depends to  which country she/he came from and the individual circumstances.

But in general, at first a residence permit is needed. Without a residence permit there wont be an employment permit. Again there are exceptions for ´border crossers´, those who live near the german border in another european country and do work in Germany. There are exceptions for all members of the european union anyway (´labor mobility´) but for those there is a certain ´tax-law´in place. Really isn´t that easy to explain.

We all are foreigners, everywhere in the world but the country of our origin.
No doubt, the word ´foreigner´ somehow became a negative word in our society. Very similar to the U.S. society where some foreigners are welcome and others aren´t, for various reasons.

What I really hate is generalization due to the language, origin, skin colour or religion (everything we´re born with or born into) of foreigners, because those aspects really have nothing to do (and really shouldn´t have anything to do) with welcoming them or not.

Each individual case is different and should be treated different. Things, you don´t - and can´t know but your immigration office.

It´s not all just black or white.

[skullbonz]

   Sounds like they are pretty tough over there,how do the bombers make it in? Or is that the reason why it's so tough? You are right about the discrimination issue,there definitely is different discrimination levels for different nationalities even over here also. 

[j69o]

It´s not all just black or white.

no its not!
Look I have nothing against Hispanics, they are a hard working lot!
They do a unique thing here, they will become a group between 10 to 20 and every payday they would give their pay to one person so that person could buy a car or something of use and rotate the giving among the whole group till all have recieved, cool Idea!
Then they start shipping money home, to me thats a drain on this weak economy and makes for great bait for more illeagles to come here!
Bad Idea!
My POV is become a citizen and recieve the benifits!
J  

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

   Sounds like they are pretty tough over there,how do the bombers make it in? Or is that the reason why it's so tough?

Bombers ? Do you talk about terrorists ?

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

It´s not all just black or white.

no its not!
Look I have nothing against Hispanics, they are a hard working lot!
They do a unique thing here, they will become a group between 10 to 20 and every payday they would give their pay to one person so that person could buy a car or something of use and rotate the giving among the whole group till all have recieved, cool Idea!
Then they start shipping money home, to me thats a drain on this weak economy and makes for great bait for more illeagles to come here!
Bad Idea!
My POV is become a citizen and recieve the benifits!
J  

Your personal observations and/or ´hearsay´, John.

In fact it´s far more complex as you may know or even could imagine. It isn´t what  we learn on basic primary schools.

It has to do with integration - and migration issues.

There are many effects on our societies and economies but these rather simple issues, you seem to be concerned about, are really covered by banking supervisions and currency rating agencies.

It has to do with the ´gross national product´ (GNP), national debt and amongst others - of course - also money transfers (counted and estimated) from one country to another country.  It is far more complex, as I could explain, especially since I´m not a specialist.
 But you might get an idea, when you think about the global economy crisis. Why do you think it´s a global problem ?

Why do you think some currencies are more stable than others ? Why do you think some currencies are more worth than others ? It all has to do with it and depends on each other. In fact the concerns you have, aren´t any.

You may only see, what floods out through your front doors but seem to have no idea what comes back in reverse through your backdoors and that it depends on each other.

If your concerns would be really an issue it would mean your country (our countries) gets sold out,  sooner or later. Do you really think it´s that simple and not already covered  by many, many international laws and regulations ?

[Inferno]

If by labor you mean work visa's, they are all over the place. My job is full of them.

Edited for point: the 1st job below confirms lower paid foreigners being schooled and educated ( sometimes at our expense btw! )for specific High end tech jobs! Not the jobs that Americans dont want to do. The training at job 1 was a comedy show while they properly trained our replacements! We got a vcr video to watch and a good luck! They got an education on the same matters.

No,


I wasn´t talking about visa, Inf. A visa is a restricted residence permit in many ways.

I was talking about a legal citizenship.

Not that a visa is illegal in any way.

But your post is interesting either way: so you´re saying, jobs are created for foreigners with a restricted residence permit ?  Does it mean, when the foreigner has to leave again, the job gets cancelled as well ?

Actually my intent is actually worded to 2 seperate employment oppurtunities...

1stly as a Customer Systems Engineer for Lucent Technologies/Avaya Communications ( "we make the stuff that makes communications work" ) I have witnessed the systematic migration of our coveted "Tech Support" infrastructure to India.
They tried to bring some foreigners over but it didint go over well at all with the Union so,, instead they sent Tech management out to India to start training them over there. Most of those who thought they would be spared by doing this deed found themselves then outsourced as well and out of luck. The project picked up momentum as they realized the cost savings of doing this. However in recent times there is a bigger push to bring tech support back to thew states and other places like Mexico and Argentina. and PS I hafve worked with some incredible intellects from both places. We are coming to find that India is profocient in PC and server operations and sort of fails at applicatiuon specific products. Along with huige customer dis-satisfaction with the set tup. Now India only takes out of hours support for the Avaya communications products.

Also now as an employee of a City Agency in a Telecomm capacity I can assure you that the day to day operations of clerical and finacial affairs has a large "revolving" foreign hand in them. I change the phones and service for these people. Some stay a few months, some a year and some 2 years..

The city has figured out that they can pay foreigners "legally"  and keeps a healthy rotating stock of "foreign" employees.

Main point is i guess that business and Government as well is not worried about keeping Americans working. Its part of that "fuzzy" math saying we created 10'000 jobs NY but btw, we only hired 1'000 NY'ers. You wouyldnt know tis unless you saw it. MOst people see or hear the quick media blurb of X amount of jobs that where just created rah rah rah but the real story is that only a few residents got to benefit rather than the " told version".

[Inferno]

edit didnt work :(


the first job foreigners where being trained and educated while we where given a vcr video and a good luck!

This was very specific tech specialty positiuons. Not the positions that "Americans donyt want ! "

The jobs at job 2 dont go away when the foreoigner goes away, the next foreigner takes his place. Its a revolving door.

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

I can imagine, Inf.

I have to tell you, it´s the american way of ´turbo-capitalism´and not only present in the U.S. , also in other western countries.

It´s a question of ´Who can do what and what is his/her prize´.

When we talk about a simple service, nearly everyone can do, you can be sure of those who will demand the lowest wages, will get the jobs.

When we talk about skilled work, it will be those with the best education <---> lowest demand on wages ratio, getting the jobs. In many cases you´ll even have to train those, who will take your jobs later.

It´s not the fault of the foreigners, nor the fault of the governments. It´s the fault of the greedy companies, making it worthwhile.

I totally understand the frustration, since it is very similar over here in Germany. It simply isn´t right but what can we do ? The industries are way too powerful, way too greedy and since our world is all about money, they having way too much influence on politics.

Right now, the only way out is a very good education and the will to work for lesser wages. Those who just finished school and want to work in the free economy need to select the line of business very wise, in regard to its future.

Hopefully all this will change soon.... there are debates about sustainability already.
Profit is not everthing and they did recognize it already. ´Sustainability´will become the ´word of the year´ in one of the next years, I´m sure.

I´m sorry to say: ´turbo-capitalism´ is just another U.S. american invention, which is to blame. So you brought it on yourselves and everyone else, who´re following the american path (incl. Germany). It´s nothing you or I wanted to happen but we´re possibly the victims.

[Inferno]

Agreed 100 percent.

Except for the absurd part of turbo capitalism being caused by America. America is an experiment. The players and money are International and long before America was born.
America was just the dumb customer buying all this crap while the left fights the right and each blame the other for all the problems.

Hidden in Plain Sight

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

Greed doesn´t know any borders or nations. In fact the U.S. are a rather young country, compared to others. But they were the outriders in regard to industrialization and later outriders in optimizing profits.

Optimizing profits on our (your) backs, even though the labor costs are a rather small percentage of the over all costs. But the labor costs are the costs which can be most easily influenced and immediately.

And this is e.g. one of the reasons, why so many lobbyists don´t want to see a national health care system becoming true. At least not one for which the employers will have to pay 50% of everything. ---> rising labor costs. For big companies it means billions of dollars. Billions of dollars they could easily afford but don´t want to.

I´m maybe wrong to blame the U.S. In fact it´s in the interest of all industries worldwide and I´m sure some industries in other countries even did it to its perfection. But it still works best in the U.S.
I had the impression, over here in Germany it all started with ´Mc Donald´s´. An U.S. american company in which humans are easy to replace by others and degenerate to merely numbers.

I could be wrong. And it also really doesn´t matter where it all started. It´s bad enough when it gets copied by others and wherever.... it has to stop.

Our nations having alot in common, when it comes to such topics. The problem (or rather the difference) is U.S. --->rather private business while Germany--->rather controlled or better under the supervision of its government. You wont agree but I must say I don´t want to live under U.S american circumstances.

[Inferno]

I could be wrong. And it also really doesn´t matter where it all started. It´s bad enough when it gets copied by others and wherever.... it has to stop.

Our nations having alot in common, when it comes to such topics. The problem (or rather the difference) is U.S. --->rather private business while Germany--->rather controlled or better under the supervision of its government. You wont agree but I must say I don´t want to live under U.S american circumstances.

Your right about sustainability. This is the next buzz word to infiltrate the markets. Wall street will also capitilize on reccomending companies that can remain sustainable etc etc..