Time for me to post something.

[shrapnel]

 .

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

You pretty much said it yourself, Sir. Tolerance is the keyword. Generalize is rather bad.
And ´tolerance´ is the much better term,  as ´liberal´ is, because it´s detached from politics.

I can totally understand the sensivity and bad feelings in regard to this topic. And if you strongly believe that islamic terrorists were responsible for the WTC attacks, you must feel, like many do.

But:

a.) we don´t really know to 100% what they´re trying to make us believe. There is alot of evidence on both sides but a final proof is missing. So please be careful, when making up your minds too early. We don´t have all the informations. And that our governments lied to us in many cases, is a proven matter of fact.

b.) when the islamic extremists were really responsible, you should look at it as a kind of ´counter-attack´ within their - very limited - capabilities. They don´t have nukes, aircraft carriers etc. and all the high technological war equipment to strike back on an equal basic position. (which would be much worse ?)

c.) if you really think, you (we´re) fighting for our freedom in Afghanistan, we´ll have to grant them the opportunity to do so likewise, by attacking our countries within their capabilities. Our (special-) forces acting in the same way, cruel and barbaric over there but of course under cover. If you think our servicemen acting heroic and within the rules given by the geneva convention and various human rights organisations all the time, you should lay back down again and keep sleeping.

So far, all this has absolutely nothing to do with religion.

If you´re interested in what ´Jihad´ originally meant and what its meaning is in modern times, this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad will be an interesting read for you.

a religion that spawns and nourishes as much hate and destructiveness as Islam does.

...was the sentence that bothered me.

Like all books about religious lessons, the ´Koran´ is leaving alot to interpretation and is full of antagonisms. (maybe even more, than the holy bible)
These gaps are abused by extremists to underscore their demands.

An example of the holy bible:

- You shall not murder

-  an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth (<---- which has been abused alot by christian extremists and other misguided prats to justify the iraq-war)

Isn´t it an antagonism or a gap, that can be easily abused ?

Also that muslima having to wear headscarfs to cover their hair isn´t written anywhere in the koran. It´s an interpretation of extremists caused by the koran-verse that women shall not wear clothes or running around in a way, that other men are looking at them in a naughty wise, which again makes their husbands jealous. Because adultery is a heavy crime in draconic Islam and can be punished with the death sentence....

Adultery...... wait....


- You shall not commit adultery

Where have I read again ?


It´s extremists we´re talking about. Not islamists.

And extremism is always bad.

Crusades, Inquisition.....

....hey that happened back in the medieval times.

What we always seem to forget or even haven´t realized yet: many islamic countries still are in the medieval times. And with each bomb we drop on them, we set them further back in time....

The Afghanistan-task is an impossible task. You can´t skip hundreds of years of development by just bringing them democracy.

Having said that, I can still understand that facing a mosque at ground zero is a very difficult challenge, if not even an insult to many ......












.....so called civilized people.




P.S. Other than that, I totally agree with you, shrapnel. Nothing is lost and your words of wisdom as well as your calmness do still impress me. I´d like to read much more from your educational writings and I´m not alone. Share it with us. It´s a highlight of equilibrium in these uncertain times. You can´t always be 100% correct. Nobody is perfect but we all do aspire to become so. From whom can we learn, if not from someone like you ?

Respectfully

Tulla

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

      I do wonder if putting a mosque at ground zero is just a little rubbing the nose in it though.  

As I said on the UK-thread already, the plans of building a mosque near ground zero have totally missed me. I didn´t know about it until Vipor opened this topic.

Meanwhile I have filled the gap in education, which was probably caused by our national (meanwhile censored and biased - since we´re openly involved in the Afghanistan war) mainstream medias.

The last few days I did read alot about the matter on the internet and stumbled upon the news about the sponsors of said mosque and that their funds by far don´t cover the costs and that US-senators are asking wth the money is coming from.

Now.... keeping in mind that ObL is a billionaire and he could be the under-cover sponsor of the mosque, is.....

I´m sorry to say....



... a humoresque, for not to say a brilliant - and well thought out psychological attack on the unconquerable american nation, if it´s true.


And again I´m sorry to say but if so, it deserves my respect and sympathy.

I just hope my words wont stuck in my throat one day.

[skullbonz]

  Just thought Tulla might like this,,, 

           http://thebubble.msn.com/#/video/?id=dc427020-ce24-4a9c-96d0-073c4c47d705

[j69o]

IMHO that guy is full of crap! Let me settle this here and now, let me build a Christian church in Mecca that will be free of terrorism and I will guard the Center with my life.
It works both ways guys, with Islam it works one way!
J 

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

  Just thought Tulla might like this,,, 

           http://thebubble.msn.com/#/video/?id=dc427020-ce24-4a9c-96d0-073c4c47d705

I do, Bonz, thanks. :)

Though I think there is no place for sarcasm on such a sensitive topic.

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

IMHO that guy is full of crap! Let me settle this here and now, let me build a Christian church in Mecca that will be free of terrorism and I will guard the Center with my life.
It works both ways guys, with Islam it works one way!
J  

Interesting thought, John. I hope that will happen sometime, if it didn´t already:
http://www.worthynews.com/5584-news-alert-secret-christian-church-in-mecca

Secretly though.  Mecca and Medina are holy cities for the islam and no other religion is allowed there. The difference simply is, that NY isn´t a holy city for christianity and that the american constitution allows freedom for any religion, while the saudi laws don´t.
The western, christian countries are by far more tolerant to this regard. But at the end of the day, it´s exactly this kind of freedom (different word for tolerance ?) we´re fighting for !?!



Btw. did you know, that there is an islamic ´prayer room´within the Pentagon ? Even though the Pentagon was another target on 9/11 ?

How come, noone seems to be aghast ?

I´d say it is because it hasn´t been thematized by FoX-news and other right wing media. Why ? Because they consider themselves as thundering patriots and don´t want to question the decisions of the government, respectively the DoD.

On another note: the ´Imam´ of the planned cultural center did work closely together with the Bush administration and the FBI on projects against extremism.

There is really lots of food for thought.

A question: are you christian, John ? I mean a good christian ? Do you visit the church each sunday, attending the mass ? Do you live by the rules of the holy bible, each and every day ?

Are you religious by all means or just in a rather egoistic way, if at all ?

Which leads me to another question: shouldn´t we look at the whole story, detached from any religion ? And if we do it, what is left that causes so much grief ? Hate and racism ? Or simply the fact, that you feel pI$$3d ?

[j69o]

Yes M8 I am christian, have had a vision of Jesus come to me, but thats another story, Look Kai to me its a tit for tat, like I said let me build a church in Mecca, build the Mosque in NYC.
Now am I pissed over the loss of so much life in the name Allah, TBH Kai does that not make ground zero as sacred as Mecca?

[Vipor]

For me it is not specifically that this mosque is being built close to ground zero, rather that it is just another crack in the dam. Or another straw on the camels back. Over my life I have seen such drastic changes to our nation. It is nothing like it used to be and we are still young comparatively to most of the nations represented by these forums.

We are no longer One Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for All.
 
I could tear down the pledge to show you how some of us feel.

Instead, I will outline for those who want to expound upon!!

God is all but gone.

We are definitely divisible.

Many Liberties have been tarnished.

Justice for all now means justice for those who are a minority or have the power to buy it.


Now..there are some statements to chew on and spit out in debate form !!!

 

[j69o]

Ahmen Brothar!
J

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

Ummm....

It´s a very late realization of very old matters of facts.

God is all but gone

  Yes ?

We are definitely divisible

Of course. What have you thought then, all the years ?

Many Liberties have been tarnished

Yes, indeed. Not only in the U.S. It´s the same here in europe. Do you know why ?

Justice for all now means justice for those who are a minority or have the power to buy it.

This sentence I find in the same way surprising, as I find it disturbing. Actually I think it´s totally BS.

´Justice for all´ means what ? Does it exclude anyone ? Does it exclude minorities or the rich ? Or does it exclude everyone else but minorities and the rich ?

The way it´s written, it sounds as if it excludes everyone else. So you feel, there is no justice for you, because of what ? What is justice then ? I guess it´s in the eye of the beholder.

[j69o]

We are getting a little off topic here guys!
The bottom line here is the improper Mosque, but to respond to the justice thing, here it is like health care, the more you can afford the more you get, period!
Look Kai Islam is truly wanting to take over the world with their faith, Christians are spreading the word also, through out the world, but the funny thing is Judaism is just trying to survive, and defending them selves quite well!
Maybe we have hit the survival mode here!
J

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

We are getting a little off topic here guys!
The bottom line here is the improper Mosque, but to respond to the justice thing, here it is like health care, the more you can afford the more you get, period!

This statement is true in regard to health care but most important is, that everyone receive it and nobody is lost, not only in case of emergency. In regard to justice it often appears to be true as well. The rich often seem to be punished with minor fines for major misdoings, while ordinary joe always goes to jail for a minor crime.

Look Kai Islam is truly wanting to take over the world with their faith, Christians are spreading the word also, through out the world, but the funny thing is Judaism is just trying to survive, and defending them selves quite well!
Maybe we have hit the survival mode here!

hmmm....

I´m not a very religious man. I´m christian because I was born in a christian society. My parents were/are christian but neither of them were overly religious as well, when they decided to baptize me. Nowadays the church seems to be something for weddings, christenings and funerals only. For me the church is all about money. It doesn´t touch me at all. I don´t need churches and priests, because if I believe in a higher power, I can do it everywhere and everytime I want.

I have absolute no relation to any religion, not even to my own. Many are very canting though and abusing the church and their beliefs for their very personal benefits. It is often very crooked.

And in fact it seems it is more crooked in christianity, than in other religion. So, if the christian churches losing members, it doesn´t surprise me at all. Nothing is sacred anymore. It´s frightening what all has changed, compared to my childhood.
But above mentioned ´hypocriticals´are existent in all religions. I have a very distant view on religions. So I could say: may the ´better´or more sucessful religion win and if it doesn´t work out, they may beat the S**t out each other, I´m not affected.

The problem I have with your above statement is:

Islam is truly wanting to take over the world with their faith

Well, it´s their right to try. Christians tried that too (and still trying, just not in such an agressive way anymore). Everyone is free to believe in whatever they want and if some want to be ´missionized´or ´converted´ how they say nowadays, than so may be it.

Funny thing is, I´m living in a western, industrialized country among thousands of islamists and none of them ever tried to convert me, nor has threaten me in any way or form. They´re a very peaceful, friendly and hospitable bunch and they´re not only a few.

I see the whole story very pragmatic and reduced to what it really is: a (made up) war and all the propaganda and panicmongering that comes with it.

Actually our governments seem to have huge interests in said propaganda and panicmongering and we all know why: To cut civil rights

You really want to tell me, that the united forces of the 5 or 6 leading worldnations aren´t capable to win a war in Iraq or Afghanistan ? C´mon. What has actually been achieved in the 7 years lasting Iraq-war, other than eliminating Saddam ? Absolutely nothing. It is worse than it was before, did cost billions of dollars and dozens of  thousands of civilian dead. (not to mention the couple thousand of dead soldiers but that´s their job and they should be aware of what can happen, if you invade a foreign country). A totally destabilized region, open and willing to get conquered by Iran. And you can bet, if they only try, you´ll have the next war, your economy (I have to say ´our´economies now) need(s) so much.

Afghanistan ? Pretty much the same.


Terrorists....uhoh....

Islamists....uhoh....

Brainwashing doesn´t work here, sorry.

I for one have absolutely nothing against islamists. I can´t say anything bad about them, other than they believe in a different god and having a different culture, than we. And ?

Ah well there were the ´terrorists´(or not) and they happened to be islamic extremists.... (or not ?) Will we ever know ?

And that alone justifies what ?

[j69o]

You turning into quite the wordsmith there Kai I take pride in that.
Now granted you live among Muslims, hell I do to here, but where in name of goodness, does it justify the mass murder of US and Foreign citizens?
TBH Kai I think you are missing the symbolism, a Mosque near GZ would be a symbolic gesture on our part, but to what end? Does that say we will succumb to Islam, they beat us or does it say we are tolerant? Either way the wrong was done and GZ is a scared place that should not be desecrated.
Respect for the dead bro.
J
 

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

I understand the symbolism some recognize there, very well. And you´re right, if there is any symbolism at all, it´s only a matter of the point of view or the angle you look at it, whether it´s pro-tolerance or anti-christianity (or anti-U.S., anti-western countries etc. we are talking about an ideological win of the Islam here)

My pov is the following: about 3000 people lost their lifes in the mass-murder of 9/11 2001.
Until today, it´s very questionable and not 100% proven who the delinquents were and what their true motives were.

[And there is already the difference between your pov and mine. For you it seems to be perfectly proven, because you believe in what they (government, Bush, medias and not  to forget later: the embarrassing congressional investigation committee ) told you, while I don´t, at least not without alot of exceptions]

And this difference in thinking and believing alone is determining in what directions we think further and how we feel. There is no bridge.......

But even if I´d believe in the same scenario as you do, I´ll have to ask myself what the world religion ´Islam´ really has to do with it.

Maybe a poor but still comparable counter- example would be: what has christianity to do with the murder of John Lennon, just because his murderer had the vision of god, telling him to do, what he did.

Nothing.....


Misguided idiots all around, no matter what religion they believe in. Can we come back on the ground of facts, away from religious thinking pls ?

Nothing is sacred.....

Not in our societies, nor in theirs. It´s just a  pretextual argument....