What is the next League?

[skullbonz]

   What and who will be doing the next league? I am hoping that the next League manager comes up with a League that makes it fair for all squads to compete. The last few leagues have been grossly one sided towards the bigger squads giving the smaller or weaker squads no chance to advance. This last one just proved that the smaller or weaker squads no matter how hard they tried just plain did not have a chance in hell.
    How about in the next one you team up a smaller/weaker squad with one of the bigger squads against the same. In other words take the top 5 squads and team each one with each of the bottom 5 squads from this past league for a real battle. It could be a massive 2 squad or another 4 squad with 2 camps against 2 camps. Would it not be fun to have a league where all players can fly in matches? Of course some will not want to do this because of ego's and I say come on guys climb off your high horse and make it fun for the little guy for a change. I say take the number one squad and team with the lowest squad,the 2nd from the top squad with the 2nd from the bottom,etc. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out a way to make it fair for all,but it seems you have to be one to make it unfair and biased to the bigger squads.
     Being a member of one of these smaller/weaker squads I can say from experience that it is no fun to continually get beat down,spanked and humiliated to the point that near the end of the league our members don't even show up any more. We all try to keep our heads high and smile to the bitter end but the truth is we are losing interest in leagues as others have in the past. You all would like to see more new members that join air attack to stay in the game but none of the bigger squads take them in leaving them no choice but to join a smaller/weaker squad. Then after getting beat time after time in matches,FFA rooms or team rooms they finally quit and never come back. Is this what you all want? Do you all want to see this game die? I think not and believe someone can come up with a way to make it fun for all while still competing  seriously,thus making it more fair to all.
   

[TKFM_Garibaldi]

Sounds like a great idea in principle, and definitely worth a try. We could be looking at big 2-squad matches of let's say 14 or so per side (which is fine :) ).
Getting the balance right will be real hard though, as you will need to try and have the same proportion of pilots from each stronger/weaker pairing, otherwise one team could be mostly from a stronger squad whilst the other is evenly balanced. We may just have to accept that the fairness that is sought may not be so easy to attain, but I don't think this should prevent it from being tried.

By the way, I do understand what you say about this (4 dquad) league. There have been several matches where it is clear that there has been a race for points between 2 stronger squads, resulting in them each pounding one of the other 2 (weaker) squads whilst not really fighting each other for much of the quarter. This is not what 4 squad is supposed to be like, but preventing this 'two separate pins' problem is difficult.

[Jackal]

Sounds like a good suggestion to be brought up maybe at the next meeting ?

[_TAC_ONE]

Some people just do not fit into the mind set of a competition, In essence Bonz you are asking for political correctness "No kid gets a grade lower then a "C" mindset.
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There are two ways of going about what you are asking for.
1. Is to set up separate divisions (Pro and Novice?) but the lower division will only progress so far with out competing with the higher division teams. Even then, what will the out come be? Someone still has to come in 1st place and last place, Then what would people want next go round be.

2. Would be to set up a handy cap setup from last years Tables. If there was 10 squads lower 5 get to field two more pilots. Yet in the progression stand point of competition a lower table squad beet the handicapped squad, how can one set their strategy up knowing why they won. There would be to many unknowns to study from.

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Really, Lower guys on the totem poll need to learn to set their goals for the match that actually fit their skill level.

Now setting up handicaps by point penalties "rules side" is another story with 4sq etc. So far the "Idea" behind the AA deaths is only hurting the lower skilled squadrons. If something like AA point penalties was to work effectively, The second place and first place squads in the Qtrs could have a higher penalty.

After scoring the qtr if a first place and second place squadron had a penalty of at least -5 points or more and those 5 points were giving to the squads aa they died in, maybe they would think about doing hard pins. If the 3rd and 4th place squads of the qtr had the same penalty system, it is only hurting them and making the 1st and 2nd place squads more effective at  winning rounds.
same can be said with friendly collisions.

[skullbonz]

   Basicly what you are saying Tac is the same as the last 2 squad league and the weaker squads stay at the bottom,no fun m8.
    What is wrong with having the stronger squads TEAMED with the weaker squads? By TEAMED this means team them up,mix them up,both on same TS,divided equally between 2 camps or all on the same camp. Not to hard to figure out that one. It is very hard for a weaker squad to get good pilots to join. Why? Because everyone wants to be on the winning side as evident with fun events time after time and your own squad. Didn't you and Kujo recently join a stronger squad rather than help a weaker squad get better by joining them?
    My idea would make it more fun with with more pilots on each side specially if it is a 2 squad,A weaker squad would gain also by learning from the stronger squad during the league,and this might make it so that our members do not get frustrated and quit before it is over.
     The old saying comes to mind here "Keep it simple stupid" with no complex scoring as you have suggested or was used in the past.
     If something doesn't change then I believe our squad will not want to join the next league. I do not know this for sure and I will ask them but I am pretty sure they won't want to. We have had practices with stronger squads that had absolutely no learning value from the stronger squad,just a shooting fish in a barrel practice and we were the fish.
   Regardless of what becomes of this I am very proud of the Raven squad for sticking these past leagues out until the end despite the overwhelming odds. We kept telling ourselves that it was fun,but realisticly it was not.

[skullbonz]

 And we wonder why BSS and TEA don't compete anymore,geeesh.

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

And we wonder why BSS and TEA don't compete anymore,geeesh.

Wasn´t you with TEA before, Skull ? Why did you leave them (him ?).

[_TAC_ONE]

Didn't you and Kujo recently join a stronger squad rather than help a weaker squad get better by joining them?

What Squad did Kujo come from? Any-clue what squads ask me to join, if not how can you say I joined a stronger squad or a weaker one?

My joining USHA had no relevance on where they placed in competitions, the thought never crossed my mind. What did matter is how I and they felt around me "fit". Did I and squad members fit like we were around each other for 10 years  is what mattered to me.

[skullbonz]

Wasn´t you with TEA before, Skull ? Why did you leave them (him ?).

Yes I was,3 times. The last time after 6 months of myself and racer being the only ones that showed up to matches that had to be forfeited after promisses in real life by the C/O that he would be there with his family of pilots,yes we did leave to join another inexperienced squad that was serious about having a squad. Don't preach to me about TEA m8,I know the C/O personally and live close to him and his empty promisses.

 The reason they didn't show up was because they got sick of losing miserably every time they flew,I know,I was the X/O.

[skullbonz]

As in the UK this thread is getting off topic,please reread the first post and come up with ideas for the LM instead of pouncing on me.

[popgun]

 Sigh  
I don't even know if there is a cure for this.
I traded being fun event manager for league manager to try to bring
something different to the league table.

Maybe using a fun event like AA soccer as a league  to give some of the weaker squads
a fighting chance. However my 1 st attempt fell apart on me..
Trying to get most of these pilots to try something different is like
getting a rattlesnake to give up his rat.  

And I don't believe it would change much for how things pan out.
The top squads would still stomp the weaker squads.

I thought LTS would give the weaker squads a better chance because of no pinning
the base and pounding a squad, But it didn't seem to matter.

The winning ticket here seems to be practice and teamwork.
The BBC decided its time to get more serious about becoming a better squad.
And put having fun on the back burner, ( fun events ).

We know it will take time to get into the top ranks,it doesnt happen over night.
As I have said I'm in it for the long haul..and we all know it will take lots of work.

 Perhaps there is a way to to team upper and lower squads but it will not be easy.
the numbers can make it hard to do , BBC usaually fields 8 to 10 pilots at a match.
were as Raven or OA may only have 5 or 6.

Ok I'm just ranting now... perhaps a 2 squad with 2 divisions again.  
I think we all need a group hug  
 

[Kujo]

 Bonz i have read all the posts on this so far and do understand you are more interested in formulating a league structure that is fair. It is not clear to me how that process is managed but my interest would be in having a meeting first with all the sysops due to the fact that they all care about the future of this game.
 That aside what most are saying is how i feel, namely working on winging and tactics. Also most squads should have a structured training program. When you do practice against another squad it would be of benefit should others let you listen in on ts, not your whole squad but 1 or 2 of you. Just having some experienced pilots help you out may not benefit much, can't hurt but with out structure it is very limiting.

[skullbonz]

    Yes,finally we have 2 guys making sense,thank you popgun and kujo. The numbers thing could be met with a 2 squad having 2 squads combined on each camp,ie/1 squad has 10 pilots,the other 8 totaling 18 pilots on one side,the other has a total of 20 but only 18 can fly,just an idea. I am not a league manager so it is not up to me,I am just trying to throw out some ideas to help keep the interest up. The only reason this got on the subject of Ravens is because of the narrow minded individuals that posted their narrow minded views. I brought up this idea to try to help all the smaller squads,our squad just happens to be in this group. I would have suggested this even if I was in a stronger squad because I can see that the weaker/smaller squads are slowly disappearing from competitions and soon it will be left to the top 5 squads for lack of interest. What fun would that be? 

[_TAC_ONE]

The only reason this got on the subject of Ravens is because of the narrow minded individuals that posted their narrow minded views.

Hey Bonz, only person that brought Ravens into this subject was you, so what the heck does this part mean directed at others posting narrow minded views? 

Do not know if you see this or not, but from the other side of the monitor seems to be a few rocks coming from your directing.

[Vipor]

What and who will be doing the next league?

 As the title and first sentence asks.....

It seems that the next league falls under the task for the US.

Next, in my opinion to get the most participation, I would stick with a league that has been successful in the past.

I also would get a league started ASAP as summer is around the corner and many will not be around on Sunday's for matches. This is especially true for USA pilots as match time are in afternoons.

If I were to have my choice, I would do another 4sqd and just tweak the rules/format a bit to make it seem fairer. I say seem fairer as it will never be totally fair no matter how you tweak any league. (Sort of like stock car racing. Supposedly all cars are stock or the same yet we know this is not the case)

If the LM wants to combine sqds for a short, pre-summer league, he/she might have only a total of 4sqds (possibly 5) and appoint the sqds according to numbers, ability, location and past performance of each sqd. Have a round robin for a few weeks and be done with it.

TKFM will gladly fly with any sqd but Tigers as they are pants   

Just a thought for something short, sweet and integrating many ideas.....