This is Scary

[Modeam]

The Health Care Bill: What they DON'T want you to know!

This is what your in for it this guy gets his way

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

Wow, what a thriller. 

Who is the editor of this clip ? Alfred Hitchcock ? 

[H@wk]

Sounds about right, I read all 500 pages,

I guess my 5th bout with cancer will be my last, if passed since it cost 6000.00 a treatment and I have 6 every time  oh well

Maybe if I join the government Army they will take care of me

Blue Skies my friends see ya in AA heaven

[Aegle]

Yes it is very scary. It is scary that so many people will simply accept the video as truth because they want to believe everything bad they read about their present government. Many will accept the contents of this video without checking it's authenticity because it is what they want to believe.

I am not going to waste my time in this venue by offering a detailed blow by blow rebuttal of this blatant propaganda. For those of you who truly seek the truth there are many reliable sources of information out there that will enable you to read the facts for yourselves. Regardless of your political persuasion do not allow your prejudices to over rule your common sense. There are many legitimate areas within the Health Care proposals that are worthy of debate and, of course, none of it should just be accepted without scrutiny. Just be sure that you read and interpret the actual wording of the proposals and not some crackpot's interpretation of the wording.

Remember that the proposals were not just put together by political hacks. They had input and support from politically neutral organizations with expertise in health care and insurance issues. The opposition of the type demonstrated in the video posted here is, however, entirely politically motivated. If you wish to look for the possibility of deceit and conspiracy look at the motivation behind the production of material like the video you just watched. Is it produced by people who really have your interests at heart or is it produced by those who wish to continue reaping profit from the status quo?

To all of you, Republicans and Democrats alike I appeal to your sense of reason. If you truly seek truth you will need to dig a great deal deeper than the video posted in this thread. If you wish to debate any provision of the Health Care proposals make sure your debate is based on a reading of factual material and not on slanted material that is aimed at your emotions rather than your common sense.

[Modeam]

Here you go read it yourself

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf

[TS_Honolulu_Ho]

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.3200:

The bill introduced is: HR3200

For all you tree huggers



Oh I see Modeam beat me to it,

I am not going to waste my time in this venue

Looks as though you already have.  

Just like Obama said to Joe the Plumber..........Share the wealth, brother.

If I work hard for my money and the well being of MY family, why in the HELL should I pay for some girl who can't keep her legs closed!  

Socialized medicine has failed in every country it has been tried.  

What makes anyone think that if your neighbor shoots himself in the foot with a 9MM that if someone else tries it, the outcome will be different somehow.  Leave my money alone!

Get a job, put on a chastity belt, and contribute the the success of the society not the demise of it!!  This is oversimplified but you get the idea!

If you want to pay for Girl X to have 8 babies out of wedlock and supply for the well being of her children, then send her some money from your checking account, not mine!

http://www.theadvocates.org/freeman/8903lemi.html

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/healthcare/socialized.html

[Aegle]

I know I said I would not offer a blow by blow rebuttal of the claims made in the video but I should, perhaps, get you thinking by examining at least one of the claims. I selected this particular claim because it is probably one that gives Hawk reason for concern as it would me also.

The video claims that:
Page 29:  Admission: your health care will be rationed!

The section actually starts on page 26, and it's entitled:
SEC. 122. ESSENTIAL BENEFITS PACKAGE DEFINED.

There is absolutely NO section in there, from page 26 through page 30, that indicates rationing of any kind. Looking at Page 29 specifically, it contains a section called "Annual Limitation." It is a "limitation." Is that the same as rationing?
 
Well, no. Because the limit is on the amount that people will have to pay out in cost-sharing, should the agency implementing the bill decide to use a version of cost-sharing. The limit is on how much a patient will have to pay, not a limit on the health care the patient receives.

I could go through all of the video's claims in the same way as this but I think it is something you should all do for yourselves if you truly want to seek the truth.

Like Hawk I have a very personal interest in health care, what is available and how much it costs. It is important to me because my life and my financial stability depends on medical services being both available and affordable. Believe me I am not about to let the government pull the wool over my eyes. Neither am I about to let lobbyists or other fanatics fool me with lies and propaganda. It has absolutely nothing to do with any political affiliation.

All I ask is that you do your research and base your criticisms on facts not poorly crafted propaganda from either the left or the right.

[Aegle]

Despite any attempts at personal harrassment or insults against me I will attempt to maintain a civil and respectful stance in this debate. I will try hereafter to ignore being classified as a tree hugger or having my comments quoted out of context. It would be nice if everyone else followed the same policy.

This is a serious subject with sound grounds for genuine disagreement between intelligent people. Can we not keep it that way?

[shrapnel]

Ok, guys. This is obviously an emotionally charged subject and one where folks might get hot under the collar so I will appeal to everyone to try and keep their cool.

Aegle I don't think you were specifically being referred to as a tree hugger so maybe a little less sensitivity on your part would be in order.

At the same time I have to agree with Aegle that, in a subject which is obviously very charged it is important for everyone to be polite to each other while saying what they please about the subject itself.

I look forward to further discussion so come out fighting guys but, please, keep it clean. Thanks.

[TS_Honolulu_Ho]

Despite any attempts at personal harrassment or insults against me I will attempt to maintain a civil and respectful stance in this debate. I will try hereafter to ignore being classified as a tree hugger or having my comments quoted out of context. It would be nice if everyone else followed the same policy.

This is a serious subject with sound grounds for genuine disagreement between intelligent people. Can we not keep it that way?

When someone talks about things that are as deeply dividing as this subject is and other subjects have been, you have to realize that some people wear their emotions on their sleeves.

If you can't take the heat then do not contribute to the post.

I will not be lectured on how I will conduct myself so that it meets your criteria of non-offensive.

I did not call you a tree hugger but you took offense to it, so if you did take offense to it then you may be the one that is considering yourself the tree hugger.

If my posting of your quote is offensive, you need thicker skin.

I made a post about political correctness and how it is just more bleeding heart liberal cry baby bull crap. GET OVER IT!!  

People telling you how you should speak so as not to offend someone, race, religion.

The right to freedom of speech is recognized as a human right under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and recognized in international human rights law in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR).

If you take offense to what I have said because it differs from your views and I did not post them as not to offend you, well, get over it.  

I don't blast everything you post about even though I disagree with your views.

Lets just say, you post things the way you know best, I will admit your mastery of the English language is awesome but this poor southern boy doesn't have the mastery of the vocabulary as you.

So I say things the way that I do because I have that right and freedom.

But I digress..........

So back to the subject at hand.  I found this very interesting reading.  It asks for a contribution at the end if you want to join, I didn't but found the information contained within pretty cool.



http://www.cato.org/pubs/catosletter/catosletterv3n1.pdf

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

I am a tree hugger, I am a tree hugger !!!









And I´m really proud of it. It´s in no way an insult to me, rather a compliment . :)

Socialized medicine has failed in every country it has been tried.

Really ?

Well, it works a treat in Germany for decades already. So you better be careful with such statements, if you don´t know.

- If I work hard for my money and the well being of MY family, why in the HELL should I pay for some girl who can't keep her legs closed!


- What makes anyone think that if your neighbor shoots himself in the foot with a 9MM that if someone else tries it, the outcome will be different somehow.  Leave my money alone!

- If you want to pay for Girl X to have 8 babies out of wedlock and supply for the well being of her children, then send her some money from your checking account, not mine!

Ouch....bad thoughts there, Ho. Actually not you´re the one who pays alone but everyone. And if millions of people paying it, it is affordable. In Germany we currently pay 7,9%  from our gross wages monthly and our employers the same, which is alltogether 15,8 % for health care . With other words, if your gross wage is 2000,- US$ monthly it would be 158,- US$ for you and the same for your employer. Sounds expensive ? No, it isn´t since we ´re having a 1A top health care. Cheaper is possible but not wanted.

More expensive is also possible but you always have the opportunity to pay for a private health care insurance in addition.

I for one want every person to be treated the same in regard to health care and if I´m not so proud about my country in other regards, in this regard I am.

[Aegle]

I have read the article quoted by Honolulu_Ho and yes it is interesting but, I think, out of date in its assumptions.
There is a growing realization that we in the US are beginning to fall behind in both our health services and their availability to everyone. Also, it is without doubt, that the costs of health care are rising out of all proportion. I am not advocating that we adopt a British or Canadian solution. We need an American solution. However it is dangerous to continue the fallacy of us having the best available system. Articles such as the following give a truer picture of our position in relation to the rest of the world:

http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

What I forgot to add and is probably also interesting for you:

Everyone has to pay 10 €uros per quarter once, when you visit a doctor.
When you visit another doctor, in order to get a different opinion/diagnosis, you´ll have to pay it again. This way they want to keep the costs for the health insurance funds low because in the past there were many idiots visiting 5 or more doctors in a row for one and the same diagnosis.

But if your doctor for general medicine has to send you to a medical specialist, you don´t have to pay the 10,- €uros again for ´charges for medical registration´. But only your ´house doctor´can send you to a specialist (per refferal). If you visit a specialist on your own, you´ll have to pay the 10 €uros again.


Everyone has to pay it beforehand and per quarter (max. 40,- €uros a year) but if you´re chronically sick, you can get the money back at the end of the year. But of course you´ll have to make an application to get the money back. The 10 bucks are collected by the medical secretary when you enter the doctor's practice. When you don´t visit a doctor, you don´t have to pay, of course.

It´s small money and affordable for everyone and helps alot to keep the costs low.

[JoKeR]

And everyone thought it was Bush who was leading us to the New World Order.  Hehehe.    Drag us through the mud to apologize to every low life on the planet, lower our defenses, destroy our economy, just so we can fall in line with European style of govenments.

Beware of the beast with 10 horns.  Which country will the fight for control of the New World Order.
 

Perhaps we should take a look at the State of Oregon which instituted a form of State run health care.  I heard about a lady was denied treatments for cancer by the state government, but that they would pay for hospice or provided her with self inflicted suicide if she so desired to.


Once again all the stuff my father warned me about is coming to pass.  Can you say, I'm a good Commie!!!


 

[Rb_Tullamore-Dew]

What low life on this planet are you referring to, Joker ?

Ever read the holy bible ?  



What I´d like to know is: how you currently pay for health care ? Is it a private thing ?

The more you can afford the better is the treatment ?

What if you have an accident, can´t work anymore and therefore don´t have money anymore ?

Just unlucky ?